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Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:52 pm
by robertw
Geometric patterns in sand caused by vibration (ie sound) are cool, and well-understood by science. But they have no demonstrable connection to "creation" nor, as the article claims, evolution. Seems like another case of someone finding something cool in nature that's beyond human intuition (but not beyond science) and expecting it to extend to all aspects of existence, or indeed to something spiritual.

Not to say that waves don't play a part throughout our universe, which they certainly seem to.

I'd like to see the Hebrew/Sanskrit characters which apparently have the same shape as those made by their sound in sand. There's a lot of pictures in that article, but they left these out although they would be the most important to the article.

Of ancient languages they ask: "Do they have the power to influence and transform physical reality, to create things through their inherent power, or, to take a concrete example, through the recitation or singing of sacred texts, to heal a person who has gone "out of tune"?". Answer: no of course not. This would be easy to test and would have been confirmed by now were it true. It's just wishful thinking and hocus-pocus. They shouldn't make wild claims without evidence to back them up.

Not keen on the "anti-gravity" term either. It's no more anti-gravity than it is when I pick something up off a table.

Sorry to be a party-pooper, but I can't let the irrational go unchecked. There's enough pseudo-science around, and now it's sneaking into the education system in the form of Creationism. Laws increasingly prevent anyone from speaking against it for fear of offending someone. All this is doing the world harm.


Hello again, Ulrich!

Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:54 pm
by 3katie3
i'm sorry i derailed the conversation we were having about merkaba representations.

this .gif is really very close to a planar image of a merkaba when viewed from above the axis of rotation.

3-foldkr.gif @ ... foldkr.gif ;

what is important about this figure, is that it seems to line up 4 points on a straight line which is a single axis when viewed from above. namely, the top and bottom vertices of the 2 tetrahedrons and what seems to be the center point of the horizontal face of each tetrahedron, so that the 2 tetra's are rotating more as a top would rotate, keeping the center of mass in line with the upper and lower vertices.

now what this would look like from the side is a puzzle.

your original merkaba with a side view: ... t2_2k2.gif ;

to me, appears, that the 2 centers of the 2 horizontal faces do not remain in the same axis as the top and bottom vertices.

could you tell me if that is correct in the tet2_2k2.gif -- that the 2 centers of the horizontal faces are offset as they rotate, and that only the top and bottom vertices create the single axis of rotation?

is it possible to graphically represent all 4 points on the same central axis of rotation. this would seem to conserve the center of mass as the entire figure rotates.

I hope you find this post, Ulrich, i know it is an old thread, but i've thought of your beautiful moving images many times.

Re: Hello again, Ulrich!

Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:53 am
by Ulrich
3katie3 wrote: it seems to line up 4 points on a straight line which is a single axis when viewed from above.
That is correct. If you hit "s" in stella 4D, you can see the rotation axes. There are 4 3-fold ones in the compound of two tetrahedra.
could you tell me if that is correct in the tet2_2k2.gif -- that the 2 centers of the horizontal faces are offset as they rotate, and that only the top and bottom vertices create the single axis of rotation?
They only seem to stagger because of the improper matter I created the image. Both tetrahedra rotate EXACTLY around the vertical axis.
is it possible to graphically represent all 4 points on the same central axis of rotation.
You can show them by adding a cube to the compound and hitting "v":


In this picture, two triangles and the faces of the cube are hidden.

So nice to see your post, Ulrich.

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:02 pm
by 3katie3
Hello Ulrich,

sorry i haven't been in to reply more quickly. It's been over 100'Fah here this week; today 105, and apparently my brain shuts off about about 90.

but i'll be back in to clarify what i think i am seeing in your merkaba with the many pins.

thanks for the drawing.


How can this be?

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:36 am
by 3katie3
I am sorry, Ulrich. i just do not see how this could be.

i think you are saying this: look at the pair of blue pins that are strictly vertical and there are 4 gold balls on the vertical blue pins. the top and bottom balls are clearly on the apex/zenith of the merkaba, and on the base or nadir. but then, you are also saying that the gold ball that is 2nd from apex/top, and is embedded in the brown horizontal face, and the 3rd gold ball that is embedded in the red horizontal face--you are saying that these 2 balls are in the exact center of their equilateral triangles, one is the brown horizontal triangle and the other is the red horizontal triangle.

and you are saying that each gold ball is equidistant from each corner of its horizontal triangle.

i mean, even allowing for every consideration of parallax and perspective, how can that be?

is it possble to make your figure rotate on the web page? perhaps i could see how you think this.

i do not have access right now, to look at it in the stella program.

the merkaba in a sphere ina cube

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:59 am
by 3katie3 ... 7.jpg.html

perhaps this is the merkaba you mentioned, as inside the cube

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:02 am
by robertw
You're right about what Ulrich is saying, and what he says is correct, and couldn't not be. The pins are rotational symmetry axes. That vertical axis has 3-fold symmetry, and by symmetry, must pass through the centre of those two horizontal triangles, and is perpendicular to them. It also passes through the exact centre of the whole model.


dancing pents

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:05 am
by 3katie3
this is just wonderful!!! ... b.jpg.html ;

is it a real model??

do you still have it? could you take more pictures/photos so i could see it from more angles?

the bottom right pent is confusing me. is it a pent?

it's gorgeous.

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:49 am
by robertw
Ulrich's model has icosahedral symmetry, so it has 12 identical pentagrammic sections. The bottom right part will be the same as the other 11 parts.


Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:54 pm
by guy
The centre of a triangle does look lopsided when seen from the side. One extremity of the triangle, say the left, will be a corner and a long way from the centre. The other extremity, say the right, will be an edge which passes much closer to the centre. When you spin the triangle about its centre it looks as if it is wobbling from side to side. Pentagons do this too but the effect is much less noticeable.
Hope this helps.

wobble and bobble

Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:11 am
by 3katie3
Thanks for your explanation, Guy.

i'm still left wondering about the distribution of mass as the tetrahedrons wobble and bobble around each other in a merkaba.

of course, on average it would all even out, but it seems intuitive that at any given instant and at a fixed point within the volume of space defined by a spinning merkaba, that the distribution of mass is not always the same, relative to that fixed point.

but i am grateful for Ulrich's several graphical representations, since he helped me to see how inherently unstable a merkaba is, and why it would have to rotate extremely fast.

Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:49 am
by robertw
Each of the two tetrahedra are rotating around an axis that passes through their centre of mass, so it should be stable and not wobble. Stable or not I don't know why you think it would have to rotate fast. Wouldn't speed amplify the instability? Of course in the real world you couldn't rotate the two tetrahedra through each other anyway.

Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:26 am
by 3katie3

i think it would be something like listening to a 4 cycle gasoline engine, you can hear when it become stable, and if it cannot achieve that speed, you can hear that it is unstable.

as to why the merkaba would be unstable at slow speed, it is like a top, for any given height and width & mass distribution, it has to spin at a minimum speed or it falls over. and this would be even more so when the top is made of a dual tetrahedron which has huge chunks of empty massless space inside the sphere described by the rotation.

also, i dont remember my physics well enough, but i would think the frequency of rotation required to maintain a gyroscopic stability would be directly related to the length of some internal point to point measure--some kind of standard length-ratio versus frequency.

of course i am comparing the wobble and instability of a merkaba with both an octahedron and a dodecahedron (my icon).

i have one of those ZOME platonic solids kits that i bought on, and i made up all but the icosahedron, and they can all be spun easily between two hands.

surprisingly, the dodecahedron seems the most stable. and the dual tetrahedron quite unstable. you can feel how uneven the distribution of mass is, as you spin it. ... B001IDFIKA ; (btw, i don't understand that crazy price, i bought mine for $38, it is just little plastic parts)

measuring and shape; spatial relationships

Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:33 pm
by 3katie3
i enjoyed listening to Henrik Palmgren and Scott Onstott have a conversation about measuring, shapes and spatial relationships, here on the glorious swedish fountain of red ice ... 130802.php ;
Scott Onstott - Hour 1 - Explorations in Number, Architecture & Consciousness
August 2, 2013
Scott Onstott graduated from UC Berkeley with a bachelor's degree in Architecture. He began his career doing manual drafting and later gained experience in several prominent engineering, architecture and interiors firms in San Francisco. He's taught over 45 semester courses at three Bay Area colleges and has written and edited dozens of technical computer books. Scott is also the maker of "Secrets in Plain Sight," a video exploring art, architecture, and urban design which unveils an unlikely intersection of geometry, politics, numerical philosophy, religious mysticism, new physics, music, astronomy, and world history. In this program we talk about Scott's book "Taking Measure: Explorations in Number, Architecture, and Consciousness." The book reveals patterns emergent in our universe from quantum to astronomic scales. Spatial and temporal codes appear in unexpected places, from our units of measure to the relationships between celestial bodies. We'll discuss familiar structures in the tangible world but also in the invisible world, including the question of consciousness. In the second hour, we proceed to discuss origins of knowledge, units and measurement.
first hour is free to the public. RIR, red ice radio, is one of my best subscriptions, maybe the best.

octahedrons as crystal scaffolding

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:10 am
by 3katie3
very encouraging article here about the crystal Perovskite and its use for a cheaper electrical solar panel ... irt-cheap/ ;

but the ball and strut graphics of crystal lattices shows how complicated it can get. see ... apter3.pdf ;

and on p.9 of ... apter3.pdf ;
once again beautiful octahedrons.